If nine people are on an island and one person claims ownership of the island, then that person owns all the resources including the homes of the other eight. That person would be like a king or queen and "the people" would be "subject to" the monarch and have to pay rent to the monarch.
If all nine of "the people" each own 1/9 of the island for themselves, they own their own home and land it sits on, and the resources in their land, then equality of opportunity would be much more prevalent.
Yet, in both scenarios laws of land would be required to prevent theft, assault, and trespassing on the rights of others.
I would argue that Natural Law would serve as the Law of the Land... As long as no one is causing harm to others then there is no problem. If someone begins transgressing against natural law then the other inhabitants can deal with any situation that comes up... no need for "government".. you simply don't need ruling class to deal with bad actors... it just makes the issue worse...
My final two exchanges with Sam... I am out... The belief in "government" really is a religion... and you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place... - Etienne
Sam,
1. You weren’t present at the creation of “government”.. It obviously doesn’t work… It is $31 trillion in debt.. replaced hard money with fiat… institutes lockdowns and forced injections… it was a dumb idea
2. There is no “moral contract”.. there is no contract at all.. No one signed any contract… it is just forced on everyone while the misguided cheerlead and repeat sophisms they were taught in mandatory “government” schools by “government” teachers teaching from “government” textbooks
3. Since there isn’t a contract at all… unless you lie about the definition of a contract… Your example with the Sheriff IS stealing… You are forcing people to pay for your dumb idea about “government” whether they want to or not
4. “Delegated group agreed upon contract zone” What? I can’t believe you can’t understand this is the same business model as the mafia?
5. There is no “group contract” if everyone in the group doesn’t agree… There is only the majority robbing the minority…
Sam, you are raising on a busted flush… I get it… I was tricked about the government as well.. But I gave it up once the immorality and utilitarian failure were explained to me…
In every single comment on the video or the Substack article promoting the video, people are trying to explain your immorality… And yet you just can’t see it…
Here is a quote for you: “I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”- Leo Tolstoy
Subject: RE: Feedback on the Etienne / Sam Busman Debate on Voluntaryism versus Constitutional Republicanism
Hi My Friend,
>1. You don’t know why government was created… you are speculating that the people who sold the population on government had the best of intentions
I am telling you how government was created you just don't agree.
BTW, That's ok
William Bradford—Governor of Plymouth Colony is a great example.
How did he become governor?
you are speculating on that all your voluntary people will be good and do what is right.
2. You can’t have government without stealing… Period… That is a fact… or it wouldn’t be government
I don't believe it's steeling. It's a moral contract.
We have 10 people on the island. We all agree to have a Sheriff - you don't agree.
Maybe even you and a buddy don't agree.
So, now you either must leave or voluntary help pay for it. If you stay and get the protection benefit but don't pay for the services we as a group contracted for - you are the one steeling because you are now getting something for nothing.
>3. You can delegate rights that you have… which is why you can hire a security guard… BUT.. you can’t steal from Joe to pay for it
Joe must pay if he stays in the delegated group agreed upon contract. zone, To hold out support for the moral cause is to steel and commit an immoral act.
>You are so close to being a moral human being… Just drop the exceptions from morality… There are no exceptions from morality… Even if you think it is important..
There are not exceptions you are right. However, there is a moral code of the collective you ignore.
You want to pretend you can hold out on your moral responsibility to the group - that has and will never work.
>We wouldn’t want you on our island if you are advocating for stealing…
I agree, don't receive the group contract and then not fund it, that is steeling.
So, why are you in America?
You are taking from all of us as you drive on the roads and on and on. When are you going to leave and stop your theft?
I love ya anyways - Even though you live among us and continue to steal.
In the mean time Hammurabi's the easiest to remember, damnit don't hold back with the rod! Or move over and the people will unleash it. On their leaders even...the non violent rod yo!! Ohohhohh! Your honor I digressed!
Welcome to this world where you can't be social because they all have lost their damned mind, there's no way no Jose I would ever be caught in this social madness! Say I'm mad I don't care...it's coming from mad people! Hello! Who takes offense to that? And the sad story is, underneath it all, it's that we don't have that original agreement anymore. And we're gonna have to go over that for a minute or three. See where we go from there?
Religions use vague terminology in all their affairs, the Rule of Law, applied unceremoniously, is clear as Democles' sword over their heads...as we speak even...and they know it...feel it for sure. God help us. Even though God never would interfere with our ant's affairs...having given us all the tools...for men...not the other way around...like sabbath exactly! Good job the student in the frontest front row! Thank you! Tafadal! Democles' too is going coocoo...God help us anyway! Now! Alllalllallllall! Beware the amriicans are coming! Alllallallllall hu Akbar save us!!! That's probably what they were screaming all along but for propaganda that needed your money more than yall
Something I wanna add. Jesus was not his naamo! Immanuel was! Lol a little great song I just concocted for y'all...like a coq. There was for one Immanuel repeating ad nauseum, I am that am, which in French, the very few first tribes the catholic church destroyed through Vercingetorix's tribe, translate as je suis ce qui suis. Jesus Jesus, just like Windex, it cures everything, because it is Greek! INRI was the inscription above Immanuel's head, at mount Golgotha, the skull mount...like a literal mount if people's dried skulls for pavement...crunchy pavement if you asked them...no black man of sort would ever venture forth in this god forsaken endeavor for one but INRI stood...stands for and i paraphrase here: iam or here is the Nazarene, king if the Jews...as a derogatory term for the messiah herod tricked romans into coming to philistine and israel to kill their neighboring king for them, tricked by himself ordering the killing of all children of Immanuel's age...for show and validarion of the verity ofbthe messiah rumors..at the time there were tremendous... that's a word trpump hijacked... tremendous and scary forn any empire to sit out, talks of a messiah that would rival even the might of Rome...why Rome came to philistine and israel to kill this messiah before he ascends into greatness...a Greek way of thinking I know but ...the way that won out in the end, our way today but we papered over with nice words that mean you real harm...like equity and diversity and inclusion...the trinity cut...the creation of sin, the name of Beelzebub before Beelzebub, the brainwash of the masses, the creation of a different, more...greedy god...that like kings, also desires 10% off the top...taxes and tithes...the clear proof for our present day serfdom we don't see...serfs still, to kings and priests, with their eternal thirst for life over everything...their lives that is. Never ours
A reasoned reason this position you put first and foremost it seems, in this train of though, your own may i add and by no means the only nor sole sane reason...the delice of order, mine different in i favor imagination over order, taking my delice in disorder, chaos, the only and truest force in this universe, let's, for all intent and purposes call it our own death, the delice of philosophy how to die for others, so the young ones also believe in eternity, for concerns of continuity, the reason "you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place" is just wrong and untenable, friend, is that it reinvents the wheels everyday, on everything, lacking faith in even the basics, doomed like sisyphus...religion's benefit, as told through time by many teachers that happen to poop, unloke gods that is, is that to sum it up nicely, unlike christians, the teachings of...christ...what was his name?ah yes, imma uel...which according to my tribe that lived already settled, in those day 2000 years ago taught me, imannuel means faith in god...literally iman for faith and god, El...faith in god said, at 33, I that am, sum up the whole of the law into love yourself, others and you will by definition love god, god that never ask yall for a thing, many of which yall keep using to kill in my name..too simple apparently because people keep on rereading the bible for more...harder I guess? Rules and regulations? When love is present. We shan't need a pack leader...Till then, friend, we need government to scare the bajezzus out of numbnuts on one...know wattam sayin'?nagga? Lol.sorry the ghetto got out of my hands for just a sec.and i think i can reawaken the tribal man in y'all by playing on visceral and taught fears of being the owners of tribalism...you now call racism for some illogical and totally misplaced...i wanna say racism, racist in as much as yall hog racism for yallselves alone...like its something unattainable for the rest of us somehow...sir if you can be racist, damn it i can be racist too you racist racism hogger! Logical! Wow I digressed...but since I just said I digressed y'all somehow forced to forgive me yeah? Rules and regulations borderless into religion of even grammatical proportions, is what we want? That's why people read and read and read books put together by councils for kings and priests for, right? It reeks of two tiered societal misunderstanding between the haves and the have knots in the pit of their stomachs...the poor, usualky tired of warring for yhe rich, all armed to the teeth therefore none sarting shit for no reason, living in small villages where the soldier is also the farmer, there you rarely see violence. The rules are not written but Hammurabi is never forgotten but at your own peril. Hammurabi the king and priests... with or without government, still, man is a wolf to man and you can definitely deter said wolf with this powerful, cold force with the legal authority to kill you, government as a tool hopefully, with a piece of paper at the helm and not men, kill your ass if you touch kids for example... instead of leaving it to me the father who will torture him for days, keeping him alive and awake through it a forever if prayers are answered. It usually takes more blood from kings and priests, to regain lost liberty, and blood is what we shall have, like it or not, right here in America if we don't say NO louder than this I can tell you that. To the bank even! To trigger another Jews! thing lol krav maga these old supposed leaders in all 3 chambers and we might have a chance. I think we can find some experts at krav maga somewhere...just making fun of the two places maga is at once loving and hating itself...which reminds this somali pirate of the beauty of an AK47... it's Russian by the way...not their elite either. Not since like Tolstoy, Gandhi, Mandela, Immanuel, he recanted his elitist rank by snitching on them something soo good, he was spared the stitches by the people. Lost my train so...good luck is the best I got left lol
I disagree but by just a little... make me I should listen to the end and not make a comment 5 minutes in... it's what I do. I disagree because you're confusing government and people. You agree that the constitution is a good, voluntary agreement already...agreed on right? Then if we followed the constitution, this placing a piece of paper as "the head of state", then we wouldn't have a governemt problem whatsoever and live happily ever after. The problem starts when we take government not as the tool it's supposd to be but we anthropomorphize it into factions thus making it human, with ego and wants and needs and growing pains and drama and death eventually, with innocent looking eyes on the murderer's face...when government becomes benevolent. We don't have a governemt, we have tricameral lords with the egos of old and decrepit assholes that refuse to die ...
I would argue that we have "government".. The issue is whether "government" is a good idea or not.. I would argue that it is not because it has never, ever shown itself to be capable of actually achieving the good it promises.. can't protect rights.. can't limit itself... can't investigate itself.. can't self-correct... etc. on the other side of the ledger it is a bad idea because it is built on coercion and theft... It is rotten fruit from the beginning so it produces more rotten fruit
Maybe the original error of your forefathers was to make them swear on a God...the rotten fruit in governance...now environmental and social instead of just rule of law. Again, I'm no scholar lol, just a goat herder asylee in love with the America of his dreams.
Here is another example of a good idea turned religion...tell me if you see the evolution of this, simply by looking at their original oath and current affairs...from another group, like lawyers, kings and priests, that live prominently today. Here is their old oath:
I swear by Apollo Healer, by Asclepius, by Hygieia, by Panacea, and by all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will carry out, according to my ability and judgment, this oath and this indenture.
To hold my teacher in this art equal to my own parents; to make him partner in my livelihood; when he is in need of money to share mine with him; to consider his family as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they want to learn it, without fee or indenture; to impart precept, oral instruction, and all other instruction to my own sons, the sons of my teacher, and to indentured pupils who have taken the Healer's oath, but to nobody else.
I will use those dietary regimens which will benefit my patients according to my greatest ability and judgment, and I will do no harm or injustice to them.[6] Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion. But I will keep pure and holy both my life and my art. I will not use the knife, not even, verily, on sufferers from stone, but I will give place to such as are craftsmen therein.
Into whatsoever houses I enter, I will enter to help the sick, and I will abstain from all intentional wrong-doing and harm, especially from abusing the bodies of man or woman, bond or free. And whatsoever I shall see or hear in the course of my profession, as well as outside my profession in my intercourse with men, if it be what should not be published abroad, I will never divulge, holding such things to be holy secrets.
Now if I carry out this oath, and break it not, may I gain for ever reputation among all men for my life and for my art; but if I break it and forswear myself, may the opposite befall me.[5] – Translation by W.H.S. Jones.
Religion, from religere, was meant as a communion thing,were people gather to form communities, and it somehow veered into "the affairs of people" in republics and "the rule of the majority" in democracies...both great as tools, horrible as people as seen in this uniparty that makes rules for its propagation by propaganda...I hope im not wrong when fired up. Lol that would be injecting my wants into a system with no wants. This reminds me of why your forefathers insisted on separstion of church and rule of law...why this government feels like a religion.
Government is a good idea in as much as we are, as part of the animal kingdom, a fact long forgotten it seems, in need of a pack leader to properly function in a herd. A social herd. I believe the role played by the catholic church, any of the monotheistic religions per say, all religions at large in general, in destroying all the tribes from its inception and calculated insinuation into kingdoms like that of Constantine for example, pagan and tribal kingdoms, have painstakingly destroyed all tribes on earth, to manufacture this forced cohabitation of vastly different and sane cultures into a hot melting pot that forgot who they are, therefore at the mercy of kings and priests to give them an identity based on cruel and calculated mentality of aloneness and separation in this world, thus creating this fear to hold leaders...what they now think of as saviors, their doom, accountable.
Yes and I'm arguing that is because we confuse government with people we agreed with, would apply said agreement as an impartial tool... people who agreed so far, lied about their oath to dutifully apply the governing agreements. To put it in a way I'd hate to: a machine would have done a better job at impartially apply said agreement. I'm saying this ability to self correct is only hindered by self serving people...almost like the only thing missing is good and oath abiding people...elected people...that somehow always turn out to be rich and old scavengers for old kings and priests...how is the constitution a rotten fruit from the begining? And not the people who hijacked the constitution as a document meaning let's serve the owners of things if things don't have a care in the world? Why aren't the people, I would argue self elected from a certain pool of elite people, never held accountable and we blame the system and not he people in the system? What if the problem was people and not systems? This lack of accountability is the anticonstitutional rotten fruit. This lack of proper governance because of the representatives, the rotten representatives, is the rotten fruit. Rules we all agreed with, are less likely to be the problem as opposed to those that were sworn to uphold them impartially. All I'm saying is things don't have feeling , greedy people do. Why this government has overgrown its intended size, why every new government has increased its hold by creating branches of itself, elected people did create such branches, precisely to circumvent this ability for we the people, to fire them at will, now these branches have the full force if government, without the checks and balances of elections as intended bybyour forefathers...we have branches that are dismanteling the original agreement in exchange for one we truly are far removed, in terms of correcting...we have branches that answer to none but themselves...branches that still try to grow, by hiring more and more people into a self fullfilling prophecy of tyranny by "hold them by the financial balls". I would argue that if we ever have a person with holes in their shirt so broke they are, elected for president, that simple act would prove way better than yet another rich and old guy, at the end of his or her rope, easily swayed , in their freilty, into selling their own country out for dough. People, not things are our problem. Greedy and owned people are, borrowing from astute Yiddish appellations, the real pain in the tuchus. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not politician or legal expert...I hate experts since covid...they are simply liars and traitors in my eyes, the lot of them, simply by their silence and their love for money over country. I believe in the powers of this tool your forefathers came up with, with it's flaws, I believe it is the only viable solution to Man's greed if and only if, said greed has not hired more of itself to represent US...kill US for dough.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist " ----- Lysander Spooner
I tried my best to listen to the end but at the 1.26 hr I had to shut it down. The host is a self-righteous legalist with no trace of grace or courtesy. This topic will be my next write up. The argument falls short on both sides, but seriously on that of the host. Bet his ex-acquaintances would agree, that he cannot keep the ten commandments, let alone all 600+ laws! Probably doesn't even know we're under grace and live by the righteousness of Christ, not our own works. The host sounds moronic in his constantly interrupting, fallacious opinions. I suggest he study the apostle of the grace of God -- Paul and his 13 epistles.
This host is so rude and obnoxious. I would have no reason to be on this site if this guest was not here. The host almost never let's him finish his thought before he keeps interrupting..."hang on, hang on!" he says. As if only the host has the upper hand on this argument. I am siding with the logic of the guest who sounds sane and reasonable. The host should find some other kind of work.
I would like to know Etienne, if you have a South African connection? Your name sounds uniquely like you do. Nonetheless, I agree... No Statism! Do not comply!
Etienne of the beauty? But the second something ... generation? Hand? Firmware update? Second coming? Is that what it means? The second of the beauty? That would be beautiful...also whatever else it could mean was I never wrong!
Is government moral? Oh my, heavens no...not possible.
If nine people are on an island and one person claims ownership of the island, then that person owns all the resources including the homes of the other eight. That person would be like a king or queen and "the people" would be "subject to" the monarch and have to pay rent to the monarch.
If all nine of "the people" each own 1/9 of the island for themselves, they own their own home and land it sits on, and the resources in their land, then equality of opportunity would be much more prevalent.
Yet, in both scenarios laws of land would be required to prevent theft, assault, and trespassing on the rights of others.
I would argue that Natural Law would serve as the Law of the Land... As long as no one is causing harm to others then there is no problem. If someone begins transgressing against natural law then the other inhabitants can deal with any situation that comes up... no need for "government".. you simply don't need ruling class to deal with bad actors... it just makes the issue worse...
Very succinct...I wish I had thought of that...bummer.
Government isn't even government, it is a costume worn by real power. And that will always be inescapable if you have a government.
I call "government" a technique used by inter-generational organized crime to rob and control populations.
I like that, zeroes in more.
My final two exchanges with Sam... I am out... The belief in "government" really is a religion... and you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place... - Etienne
Sam,
1. You weren’t present at the creation of “government”.. It obviously doesn’t work… It is $31 trillion in debt.. replaced hard money with fiat… institutes lockdowns and forced injections… it was a dumb idea
2. There is no “moral contract”.. there is no contract at all.. No one signed any contract… it is just forced on everyone while the misguided cheerlead and repeat sophisms they were taught in mandatory “government” schools by “government” teachers teaching from “government” textbooks
3. Since there isn’t a contract at all… unless you lie about the definition of a contract… Your example with the Sheriff IS stealing… You are forcing people to pay for your dumb idea about “government” whether they want to or not
4. “Delegated group agreed upon contract zone” What? I can’t believe you can’t understand this is the same business model as the mafia?
5. There is no “group contract” if everyone in the group doesn’t agree… There is only the majority robbing the minority…
Sam, you are raising on a busted flush… I get it… I was tricked about the government as well.. But I gave it up once the immorality and utilitarian failure were explained to me…
In every single comment on the video or the Substack article promoting the video, people are trying to explain your immorality… And yet you just can’t see it…
Here is a quote for you: “I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”- Leo Tolstoy
Peace, Howard / Etienne
From: libertyroundtable@gmail.com <libertyroundtable@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 5:45 PM
To: etienne.delaboetie@gmail.com
Subject: RE: Feedback on the Etienne / Sam Busman Debate on Voluntaryism versus Constitutional Republicanism
Hi My Friend,
>1. You don’t know why government was created… you are speculating that the people who sold the population on government had the best of intentions
I am telling you how government was created you just don't agree.
BTW, That's ok
William Bradford—Governor of Plymouth Colony is a great example.
How did he become governor?
you are speculating on that all your voluntary people will be good and do what is right.
2. You can’t have government without stealing… Period… That is a fact… or it wouldn’t be government
I don't believe it's steeling. It's a moral contract.
We have 10 people on the island. We all agree to have a Sheriff - you don't agree.
Maybe even you and a buddy don't agree.
So, now you either must leave or voluntary help pay for it. If you stay and get the protection benefit but don't pay for the services we as a group contracted for - you are the one steeling because you are now getting something for nothing.
>3. You can delegate rights that you have… which is why you can hire a security guard… BUT.. you can’t steal from Joe to pay for it
Joe must pay if he stays in the delegated group agreed upon contract. zone, To hold out support for the moral cause is to steel and commit an immoral act.
>You are so close to being a moral human being… Just drop the exceptions from morality… There are no exceptions from morality… Even if you think it is important..
There are not exceptions you are right. However, there is a moral code of the collective you ignore.
You want to pretend you can hold out on your moral responsibility to the group - that has and will never work.
>We wouldn’t want you on our island if you are advocating for stealing…
I agree, don't receive the group contract and then not fund it, that is steeling.
So, why are you in America?
You are taking from all of us as you drive on the roads and on and on. When are you going to leave and stop your theft?
I love ya anyways - Even though you live among us and continue to steal.
Thanks,
Sam
In the mean time Hammurabi's the easiest to remember, damnit don't hold back with the rod! Or move over and the people will unleash it. On their leaders even...the non violent rod yo!! Ohohhohh! Your honor I digressed!
Welcome to this world where you can't be social because they all have lost their damned mind, there's no way no Jose I would ever be caught in this social madness! Say I'm mad I don't care...it's coming from mad people! Hello! Who takes offense to that? And the sad story is, underneath it all, it's that we don't have that original agreement anymore. And we're gonna have to go over that for a minute or three. See where we go from there?
Religions use vague terminology in all their affairs, the Rule of Law, applied unceremoniously, is clear as Democles' sword over their heads...as we speak even...and they know it...feel it for sure. God help us. Even though God never would interfere with our ant's affairs...having given us all the tools...for men...not the other way around...like sabbath exactly! Good job the student in the frontest front row! Thank you! Tafadal! Democles' too is going coocoo...God help us anyway! Now! Alllalllallllall! Beware the amriicans are coming! Alllallallllall hu Akbar save us!!! That's probably what they were screaming all along but for propaganda that needed your money more than yall
Something I wanna add. Jesus was not his naamo! Immanuel was! Lol a little great song I just concocted for y'all...like a coq. There was for one Immanuel repeating ad nauseum, I am that am, which in French, the very few first tribes the catholic church destroyed through Vercingetorix's tribe, translate as je suis ce qui suis. Jesus Jesus, just like Windex, it cures everything, because it is Greek! INRI was the inscription above Immanuel's head, at mount Golgotha, the skull mount...like a literal mount if people's dried skulls for pavement...crunchy pavement if you asked them...no black man of sort would ever venture forth in this god forsaken endeavor for one but INRI stood...stands for and i paraphrase here: iam or here is the Nazarene, king if the Jews...as a derogatory term for the messiah herod tricked romans into coming to philistine and israel to kill their neighboring king for them, tricked by himself ordering the killing of all children of Immanuel's age...for show and validarion of the verity ofbthe messiah rumors..at the time there were tremendous... that's a word trpump hijacked... tremendous and scary forn any empire to sit out, talks of a messiah that would rival even the might of Rome...why Rome came to philistine and israel to kill this messiah before he ascends into greatness...a Greek way of thinking I know but ...the way that won out in the end, our way today but we papered over with nice words that mean you real harm...like equity and diversity and inclusion...the trinity cut...the creation of sin, the name of Beelzebub before Beelzebub, the brainwash of the masses, the creation of a different, more...greedy god...that like kings, also desires 10% off the top...taxes and tithes...the clear proof for our present day serfdom we don't see...serfs still, to kings and priests, with their eternal thirst for life over everything...their lives that is. Never ours
A reasoned reason this position you put first and foremost it seems, in this train of though, your own may i add and by no means the only nor sole sane reason...the delice of order, mine different in i favor imagination over order, taking my delice in disorder, chaos, the only and truest force in this universe, let's, for all intent and purposes call it our own death, the delice of philosophy how to die for others, so the young ones also believe in eternity, for concerns of continuity, the reason "you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place" is just wrong and untenable, friend, is that it reinvents the wheels everyday, on everything, lacking faith in even the basics, doomed like sisyphus...religion's benefit, as told through time by many teachers that happen to poop, unloke gods that is, is that to sum it up nicely, unlike christians, the teachings of...christ...what was his name?ah yes, imma uel...which according to my tribe that lived already settled, in those day 2000 years ago taught me, imannuel means faith in god...literally iman for faith and god, El...faith in god said, at 33, I that am, sum up the whole of the law into love yourself, others and you will by definition love god, god that never ask yall for a thing, many of which yall keep using to kill in my name..too simple apparently because people keep on rereading the bible for more...harder I guess? Rules and regulations? When love is present. We shan't need a pack leader...Till then, friend, we need government to scare the bajezzus out of numbnuts on one...know wattam sayin'?nagga? Lol.sorry the ghetto got out of my hands for just a sec.and i think i can reawaken the tribal man in y'all by playing on visceral and taught fears of being the owners of tribalism...you now call racism for some illogical and totally misplaced...i wanna say racism, racist in as much as yall hog racism for yallselves alone...like its something unattainable for the rest of us somehow...sir if you can be racist, damn it i can be racist too you racist racism hogger! Logical! Wow I digressed...but since I just said I digressed y'all somehow forced to forgive me yeah? Rules and regulations borderless into religion of even grammatical proportions, is what we want? That's why people read and read and read books put together by councils for kings and priests for, right? It reeks of two tiered societal misunderstanding between the haves and the have knots in the pit of their stomachs...the poor, usualky tired of warring for yhe rich, all armed to the teeth therefore none sarting shit for no reason, living in small villages where the soldier is also the farmer, there you rarely see violence. The rules are not written but Hammurabi is never forgotten but at your own peril. Hammurabi the king and priests... with or without government, still, man is a wolf to man and you can definitely deter said wolf with this powerful, cold force with the legal authority to kill you, government as a tool hopefully, with a piece of paper at the helm and not men, kill your ass if you touch kids for example... instead of leaving it to me the father who will torture him for days, keeping him alive and awake through it a forever if prayers are answered. It usually takes more blood from kings and priests, to regain lost liberty, and blood is what we shall have, like it or not, right here in America if we don't say NO louder than this I can tell you that. To the bank even! To trigger another Jews! thing lol krav maga these old supposed leaders in all 3 chambers and we might have a chance. I think we can find some experts at krav maga somewhere...just making fun of the two places maga is at once loving and hating itself...which reminds this somali pirate of the beauty of an AK47... it's Russian by the way...not their elite either. Not since like Tolstoy, Gandhi, Mandela, Immanuel, he recanted his elitist rank by snitching on them something soo good, he was spared the stitches by the people. Lost my train so...good luck is the best I got left lol
Government? They"re incorporated. Right down to the local level.
I disagree but by just a little... make me I should listen to the end and not make a comment 5 minutes in... it's what I do. I disagree because you're confusing government and people. You agree that the constitution is a good, voluntary agreement already...agreed on right? Then if we followed the constitution, this placing a piece of paper as "the head of state", then we wouldn't have a governemt problem whatsoever and live happily ever after. The problem starts when we take government not as the tool it's supposd to be but we anthropomorphize it into factions thus making it human, with ego and wants and needs and growing pains and drama and death eventually, with innocent looking eyes on the murderer's face...when government becomes benevolent. We don't have a governemt, we have tricameral lords with the egos of old and decrepit assholes that refuse to die ...
I would argue that we have "government".. The issue is whether "government" is a good idea or not.. I would argue that it is not because it has never, ever shown itself to be capable of actually achieving the good it promises.. can't protect rights.. can't limit itself... can't investigate itself.. can't self-correct... etc. on the other side of the ledger it is a bad idea because it is built on coercion and theft... It is rotten fruit from the beginning so it produces more rotten fruit
Maybe the original error of your forefathers was to make them swear on a God...the rotten fruit in governance...now environmental and social instead of just rule of law. Again, I'm no scholar lol, just a goat herder asylee in love with the America of his dreams.
Here is another example of a good idea turned religion...tell me if you see the evolution of this, simply by looking at their original oath and current affairs...from another group, like lawyers, kings and priests, that live prominently today. Here is their old oath:
I swear by Apollo Healer, by Asclepius, by Hygieia, by Panacea, and by all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will carry out, according to my ability and judgment, this oath and this indenture.
To hold my teacher in this art equal to my own parents; to make him partner in my livelihood; when he is in need of money to share mine with him; to consider his family as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they want to learn it, without fee or indenture; to impart precept, oral instruction, and all other instruction to my own sons, the sons of my teacher, and to indentured pupils who have taken the Healer's oath, but to nobody else.
I will use those dietary regimens which will benefit my patients according to my greatest ability and judgment, and I will do no harm or injustice to them.[6] Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion. But I will keep pure and holy both my life and my art. I will not use the knife, not even, verily, on sufferers from stone, but I will give place to such as are craftsmen therein.
Into whatsoever houses I enter, I will enter to help the sick, and I will abstain from all intentional wrong-doing and harm, especially from abusing the bodies of man or woman, bond or free. And whatsoever I shall see or hear in the course of my profession, as well as outside my profession in my intercourse with men, if it be what should not be published abroad, I will never divulge, holding such things to be holy secrets.
Now if I carry out this oath, and break it not, may I gain for ever reputation among all men for my life and for my art; but if I break it and forswear myself, may the opposite befall me.[5] – Translation by W.H.S. Jones.
Religion, from religere, was meant as a communion thing,were people gather to form communities, and it somehow veered into "the affairs of people" in republics and "the rule of the majority" in democracies...both great as tools, horrible as people as seen in this uniparty that makes rules for its propagation by propaganda...I hope im not wrong when fired up. Lol that would be injecting my wants into a system with no wants. This reminds me of why your forefathers insisted on separstion of church and rule of law...why this government feels like a religion.
Government is a good idea in as much as we are, as part of the animal kingdom, a fact long forgotten it seems, in need of a pack leader to properly function in a herd. A social herd. I believe the role played by the catholic church, any of the monotheistic religions per say, all religions at large in general, in destroying all the tribes from its inception and calculated insinuation into kingdoms like that of Constantine for example, pagan and tribal kingdoms, have painstakingly destroyed all tribes on earth, to manufacture this forced cohabitation of vastly different and sane cultures into a hot melting pot that forgot who they are, therefore at the mercy of kings and priests to give them an identity based on cruel and calculated mentality of aloneness and separation in this world, thus creating this fear to hold leaders...what they now think of as saviors, their doom, accountable.
Yes and I'm arguing that is because we confuse government with people we agreed with, would apply said agreement as an impartial tool... people who agreed so far, lied about their oath to dutifully apply the governing agreements. To put it in a way I'd hate to: a machine would have done a better job at impartially apply said agreement. I'm saying this ability to self correct is only hindered by self serving people...almost like the only thing missing is good and oath abiding people...elected people...that somehow always turn out to be rich and old scavengers for old kings and priests...how is the constitution a rotten fruit from the begining? And not the people who hijacked the constitution as a document meaning let's serve the owners of things if things don't have a care in the world? Why aren't the people, I would argue self elected from a certain pool of elite people, never held accountable and we blame the system and not he people in the system? What if the problem was people and not systems? This lack of accountability is the anticonstitutional rotten fruit. This lack of proper governance because of the representatives, the rotten representatives, is the rotten fruit. Rules we all agreed with, are less likely to be the problem as opposed to those that were sworn to uphold them impartially. All I'm saying is things don't have feeling , greedy people do. Why this government has overgrown its intended size, why every new government has increased its hold by creating branches of itself, elected people did create such branches, precisely to circumvent this ability for we the people, to fire them at will, now these branches have the full force if government, without the checks and balances of elections as intended bybyour forefathers...we have branches that are dismanteling the original agreement in exchange for one we truly are far removed, in terms of correcting...we have branches that answer to none but themselves...branches that still try to grow, by hiring more and more people into a self fullfilling prophecy of tyranny by "hold them by the financial balls". I would argue that if we ever have a person with holes in their shirt so broke they are, elected for president, that simple act would prove way better than yet another rich and old guy, at the end of his or her rope, easily swayed , in their freilty, into selling their own country out for dough. People, not things are our problem. Greedy and owned people are, borrowing from astute Yiddish appellations, the real pain in the tuchus. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not politician or legal expert...I hate experts since covid...they are simply liars and traitors in my eyes, the lot of them, simply by their silence and their love for money over country. I believe in the powers of this tool your forefathers came up with, with it's flaws, I believe it is the only viable solution to Man's greed if and only if, said greed has not hired more of itself to represent US...kill US for dough.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist " ----- Lysander Spooner
How can this even be a debate? Lol!
I tried my best to listen to the end but at the 1.26 hr I had to shut it down. The host is a self-righteous legalist with no trace of grace or courtesy. This topic will be my next write up. The argument falls short on both sides, but seriously on that of the host. Bet his ex-acquaintances would agree, that he cannot keep the ten commandments, let alone all 600+ laws! Probably doesn't even know we're under grace and live by the righteousness of Christ, not our own works. The host sounds moronic in his constantly interrupting, fallacious opinions. I suggest he study the apostle of the grace of God -- Paul and his 13 epistles.
This host is so rude and obnoxious. I would have no reason to be on this site if this guest was not here. The host almost never let's him finish his thought before he keeps interrupting..."hang on, hang on!" he says. As if only the host has the upper hand on this argument. I am siding with the logic of the guest who sounds sane and reasonable. The host should find some other kind of work.
I would like to know Etienne, if you have a South African connection? Your name sounds uniquely like you do. Nonetheless, I agree... No Statism! Do not comply!
LOL.. Kinda... My stepmom was from South Africa... Does that count? I've never been there...
Etienne of the beauty? But the second something ... generation? Hand? Firmware update? Second coming? Is that what it means? The second of the beauty? That would be beautiful...also whatever else it could mean was I never wrong!
Of course it counts! Tell her howzit from me