If nine people are on an island and one person claims ownership of the island, then that person owns all the resources including the homes of the other eight. That person would be like a king or queen and "the people" would be "subject to" the monarch and have to pay rent to the monarch.
If all nine of "the people" each own 1/9 of the island for themselves, they own their own home and land it sits on, and the resources in their land, then equality of opportunity would be much more prevalent.
Yet, in both scenarios laws of land would be required to prevent theft, assault, and trespassing on the rights of others.
My final two exchanges with Sam... I am out... The belief in "government" really is a religion... and you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place... - Etienne
Sam,
1. You weren’t present at the creation of “government”.. It obviously doesn’t work… It is $31 trillion in debt.. replaced hard money with fiat… institutes lockdowns and forced injections… it was a dumb idea
2. There is no “moral contract”.. there is no contract at all.. No one signed any contract… it is just forced on everyone while the misguided cheerlead and repeat sophisms they were taught in mandatory “government” schools by “government” teachers teaching from “government” textbooks
3. Since there isn’t a contract at all… unless you lie about the definition of a contract… Your example with the Sheriff IS stealing… You are forcing people to pay for your dumb idea about “government” whether they want to or not
4. “Delegated group agreed upon contract zone” What? I can’t believe you can’t understand this is the same business model as the mafia?
5. There is no “group contract” if everyone in the group doesn’t agree… There is only the majority robbing the minority…
Sam, you are raising on a busted flush… I get it… I was tricked about the government as well.. But I gave it up once the immorality and utilitarian failure were explained to me…
In every single comment on the video or the Substack article promoting the video, people are trying to explain your immorality… And yet you just can’t see it…
Here is a quote for you: “I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”- Leo Tolstoy
Subject: RE: Feedback on the Etienne / Sam Busman Debate on Voluntaryism versus Constitutional Republicanism
Hi My Friend,
>1. You don’t know why government was created… you are speculating that the people who sold the population on government had the best of intentions
I am telling you how government was created you just don't agree.
BTW, That's ok
William Bradford—Governor of Plymouth Colony is a great example.
How did he become governor?
you are speculating on that all your voluntary people will be good and do what is right.
2. You can’t have government without stealing… Period… That is a fact… or it wouldn’t be government
I don't believe it's steeling. It's a moral contract.
We have 10 people on the island. We all agree to have a Sheriff - you don't agree.
Maybe even you and a buddy don't agree.
So, now you either must leave or voluntary help pay for it. If you stay and get the protection benefit but don't pay for the services we as a group contracted for - you are the one steeling because you are now getting something for nothing.
>3. You can delegate rights that you have… which is why you can hire a security guard… BUT.. you can’t steal from Joe to pay for it
Joe must pay if he stays in the delegated group agreed upon contract. zone, To hold out support for the moral cause is to steel and commit an immoral act.
>You are so close to being a moral human being… Just drop the exceptions from morality… There are no exceptions from morality… Even if you think it is important..
There are not exceptions you are right. However, there is a moral code of the collective you ignore.
You want to pretend you can hold out on your moral responsibility to the group - that has and will never work.
>We wouldn’t want you on our island if you are advocating for stealing…
I agree, don't receive the group contract and then not fund it, that is steeling.
So, why are you in America?
You are taking from all of us as you drive on the roads and on and on. When are you going to leave and stop your theft?
I love ya anyways - Even though you live among us and continue to steal.
I disagree but by just a little... make me I should listen to the end and not make a comment 5 minutes in... it's what I do. I disagree because you're confusing government and people. You agree that the constitution is a good, voluntary agreement already...agreed on right? Then if we followed the constitution, this placing a piece of paper as "the head of state", then we wouldn't have a governemt problem whatsoever and live happily ever after. The problem starts when we take government not as the tool it's supposd to be but we anthropomorphize it into factions thus making it human, with ego and wants and needs and growing pains and drama and death eventually, with innocent looking eyes on the murderer's face...when government becomes benevolent. We don't have a governemt, we have tricameral lords with the egos of old and decrepit assholes that refuse to die ...
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist " ----- Lysander Spooner
I tried my best to listen to the end but at the 1.26 hr I had to shut it down. The host is a self-righteous legalist with no trace of grace or courtesy. This topic will be my next write up. The argument falls short on both sides, but seriously on that of the host. Bet his ex-acquaintances would agree, that he cannot keep the ten commandments, let alone all 600+ laws! Probably doesn't even know we're under grace and live by the righteousness of Christ, not our own works. The host sounds moronic in his constantly interrupting, fallacious opinions. I suggest he study the apostle of the grace of God -- Paul and his 13 epistles.
This host is so rude and obnoxious. I would have no reason to be on this site if this guest was not here. The host almost never let's him finish his thought before he keeps interrupting..."hang on, hang on!" he says. As if only the host has the upper hand on this argument. I am siding with the logic of the guest who sounds sane and reasonable. The host should find some other kind of work.
I would like to know Etienne, if you have a South African connection? Your name sounds uniquely like you do. Nonetheless, I agree... No Statism! Do not comply!
The Big Debate: Voluntaryism vs. Constitutional Republicanism - Etienne vs. Sam Bushman
Is government moral? Oh my, heavens no...not possible.
If nine people are on an island and one person claims ownership of the island, then that person owns all the resources including the homes of the other eight. That person would be like a king or queen and "the people" would be "subject to" the monarch and have to pay rent to the monarch.
If all nine of "the people" each own 1/9 of the island for themselves, they own their own home and land it sits on, and the resources in their land, then equality of opportunity would be much more prevalent.
Yet, in both scenarios laws of land would be required to prevent theft, assault, and trespassing on the rights of others.
Government isn't even government, it is a costume worn by real power. And that will always be inescapable if you have a government.
My final two exchanges with Sam... I am out... The belief in "government" really is a religion... and you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place... - Etienne
Sam,
1. You weren’t present at the creation of “government”.. It obviously doesn’t work… It is $31 trillion in debt.. replaced hard money with fiat… institutes lockdowns and forced injections… it was a dumb idea
2. There is no “moral contract”.. there is no contract at all.. No one signed any contract… it is just forced on everyone while the misguided cheerlead and repeat sophisms they were taught in mandatory “government” schools by “government” teachers teaching from “government” textbooks
3. Since there isn’t a contract at all… unless you lie about the definition of a contract… Your example with the Sheriff IS stealing… You are forcing people to pay for your dumb idea about “government” whether they want to or not
4. “Delegated group agreed upon contract zone” What? I can’t believe you can’t understand this is the same business model as the mafia?
5. There is no “group contract” if everyone in the group doesn’t agree… There is only the majority robbing the minority…
Sam, you are raising on a busted flush… I get it… I was tricked about the government as well.. But I gave it up once the immorality and utilitarian failure were explained to me…
In every single comment on the video or the Substack article promoting the video, people are trying to explain your immorality… And yet you just can’t see it…
Here is a quote for you: “I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”- Leo Tolstoy
Peace, Howard / Etienne
From: libertyroundtable@gmail.com <libertyroundtable@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 5:45 PM
To: etienne.delaboetie@gmail.com
Subject: RE: Feedback on the Etienne / Sam Busman Debate on Voluntaryism versus Constitutional Republicanism
Hi My Friend,
>1. You don’t know why government was created… you are speculating that the people who sold the population on government had the best of intentions
I am telling you how government was created you just don't agree.
BTW, That's ok
William Bradford—Governor of Plymouth Colony is a great example.
How did he become governor?
you are speculating on that all your voluntary people will be good and do what is right.
2. You can’t have government without stealing… Period… That is a fact… or it wouldn’t be government
I don't believe it's steeling. It's a moral contract.
We have 10 people on the island. We all agree to have a Sheriff - you don't agree.
Maybe even you and a buddy don't agree.
So, now you either must leave or voluntary help pay for it. If you stay and get the protection benefit but don't pay for the services we as a group contracted for - you are the one steeling because you are now getting something for nothing.
>3. You can delegate rights that you have… which is why you can hire a security guard… BUT.. you can’t steal from Joe to pay for it
Joe must pay if he stays in the delegated group agreed upon contract. zone, To hold out support for the moral cause is to steel and commit an immoral act.
>You are so close to being a moral human being… Just drop the exceptions from morality… There are no exceptions from morality… Even if you think it is important..
There are not exceptions you are right. However, there is a moral code of the collective you ignore.
You want to pretend you can hold out on your moral responsibility to the group - that has and will never work.
>We wouldn’t want you on our island if you are advocating for stealing…
I agree, don't receive the group contract and then not fund it, that is steeling.
So, why are you in America?
You are taking from all of us as you drive on the roads and on and on. When are you going to leave and stop your theft?
I love ya anyways - Even though you live among us and continue to steal.
Thanks,
Sam
Government? They"re incorporated. Right down to the local level.
I disagree but by just a little... make me I should listen to the end and not make a comment 5 minutes in... it's what I do. I disagree because you're confusing government and people. You agree that the constitution is a good, voluntary agreement already...agreed on right? Then if we followed the constitution, this placing a piece of paper as "the head of state", then we wouldn't have a governemt problem whatsoever and live happily ever after. The problem starts when we take government not as the tool it's supposd to be but we anthropomorphize it into factions thus making it human, with ego and wants and needs and growing pains and drama and death eventually, with innocent looking eyes on the murderer's face...when government becomes benevolent. We don't have a governemt, we have tricameral lords with the egos of old and decrepit assholes that refuse to die ...
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist " ----- Lysander Spooner
How can this even be a debate? Lol!
I tried my best to listen to the end but at the 1.26 hr I had to shut it down. The host is a self-righteous legalist with no trace of grace or courtesy. This topic will be my next write up. The argument falls short on both sides, but seriously on that of the host. Bet his ex-acquaintances would agree, that he cannot keep the ten commandments, let alone all 600+ laws! Probably doesn't even know we're under grace and live by the righteousness of Christ, not our own works. The host sounds moronic in his constantly interrupting, fallacious opinions. I suggest he study the apostle of the grace of God -- Paul and his 13 epistles.
This host is so rude and obnoxious. I would have no reason to be on this site if this guest was not here. The host almost never let's him finish his thought before he keeps interrupting..."hang on, hang on!" he says. As if only the host has the upper hand on this argument. I am siding with the logic of the guest who sounds sane and reasonable. The host should find some other kind of work.
I would like to know Etienne, if you have a South African connection? Your name sounds uniquely like you do. Nonetheless, I agree... No Statism! Do not comply!